Tag Archives: America

Should I Pay Or Should I Go Now?

If you are one of millions of Americans who have moved from the North to the South or East to West or even Austin to Dallas, you know that there are dating different customs and expectations about what to do when the check comes. Who pays? Who offers to pay but won’t be expected to? When is the tab split? What does paying the bill signify anyway? And what do you do if you handle it all wrong? 

Let me start this post by saying, there is simply no way I can please everyone on this topic. Some of you are going to disagree and quibble with me about it. Bring it! As much as I have traveled the country, interviewing and compiling dating information and customs, there is no way I’ve hit the nail on every head… please leave a comment if you have something to say… whether I got it right or wrong in your opinion… and lets get the discussion going!

Lets cover the who pays question first. Whomever did the asking does the paying. This has nothing to do with who is able to pay for it or who is greater or less than in the eyes of society… this has everything to do with being the person who initiated. If you initiated the gathering, you are the host and unless specified before that you are going “dutch,” you expect to pay the bill. 

From here on out, there is no “rule” and plenty of exceptions to the “rule.” Let me put this idea out there… if you know someone isn’t “from” where you are “from,” give them a break on this bill paying thing. If the girl offers to split it and that offends you because you were raised that gentlemen pay the bill or perhaps the girl doesn’t offer but says thank you very sweetly and you are appalled that she would take you for granted like that… perhaps consider that she may be from a part of the country where men react differently than you do when a split is offered. I can’t tell you how many women I talk to who feel like the axe of “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” falls when that bill hits the table. And girls, the same goes for you… if he looks at you inquiringly or wrestles you for the bill… go for reacting with grace as opposed to offense as your knee-jerk reaction. I doubt he is trying to offend you.

Some general rules of thumb on what to expect where you are living or visiting:

  • North East: Both parties are expected to offer to pay no matter who does the asking. Likelihood that the man will end up paying is about 50/50 and much higher in NYC since NYC men tend to use that wallet as a social standing symbol. Many Northeastern men consider the bill to be reflective of how liberated you are as far as seeking equality. Boston daters seem to be particularly fierce in their insistence that women pull out that wallet and prove their equality and liberation. A hold over from the tea party days?
  • South East and South: If you are below the Mason Dixon Line, expect the man to not only offer but likely be offended if the woman reaches for the bill. The bill has nothing to do with equality and everything to do with being “raised right” and being properly hospitable. If you are a woman, that does not mean you get off scott-free. A man will be watching to see how gracious and appreciative you are of his hospitality. Do NOT forget to express your thanks and in the deep south, a thank you note the following day wouldn’t surprise anyone. (Don’t make the mistake in thinking that Southern men see women as “less than.” Nothing could be further from the truth, as any Southern man worth his salt knows that Southern Belles have a spine of steel under that gracious exterior.)
  • Midwest: Its pretty typical for a man to pay. In some of the larger cities, women usually offer but an interested man likely will not take her up on it. The bill in the Midwest is really seen as an extension of how you were raised combined with an indicator of interest. If a woman insists on paying, it usually indicates a lack of interest in a second date.
  • Texas: A mix of Southern and Midwestern expectations. A woman usually won’t go wrong offering to pay but very rarely expecting to be taken up on it. The larger cities sway a bit more towards a Midwestern mentality, but if your date comes from small town Texas, expect Southern manners.
  • Desert and Mountain States: You have entered an equal opportunity bill pay zone. Women shouldn’t be too surprised when and if a man takes her up on paying her share of the bill. More dutch dating on the whole than most other areas of the country. The bill here seems to signify your ability to take care of yourself. Self-sufficiency rises to the surface, perhaps because the terrain encourages highly independent individuals to seek out life in the extremes of sun and snow.
  • California: Most like the desert and mountain self-sufficiency with a dash of male gallantry. Most men here will expect to pay but won’t shy away from letting a girl pay her share when offered. If the woman doesn’t at least make the offer to pay, it can easily be a deal breaker. In economic difficulty, the “gallantry” goes out the proverbial window and it becomes an almost chicken-like stand-off on who will pay the bill with one party or the other conveniently leaving the table to see if the other will lay down the plastic. If you are too gracious as a woman or man, you may not have asked for the date, but you will be paying for it.
  • Pacific Northwest: Independent but pretty on track with whoever does the asking does the paying. (Sam, maybe you can contribute more here if you think I’m not quite right in my interpretation… *grin*)
  • Alaska and Hawaii: I don’t know … YET. Any contributions from the readers?
  • Common Exceptions: Large transient cities, long term relationships (tend to come up with your own system,) The Amish and alternative lifestyles.

It helps in deciphering expectations if you know more about the person you are going out with… if she was raised in the South or by traditional parents, she’ll be shocked if you expect her to pay her share when you ask her out… not because she thinks she is “less than” or incapable of paying, but because — TO HER — it says you don’t want to treat her like a lady and with respect. If he was raised in the Northeast or mountains, offer your share because you know that — TO HIM — you are claiming equality, self-sufficiency and a lack of entitlement. But no matter who you go out with, show gratitude for their time whether they contribute to the bill or not. 

If you did mess up and offend your date with poor bill handling finesse, I don’t know what to tell you other than to let that one go or suck it up and have an open conversation about what went behind your behavior. But it’s hard to go wrong by remembering two things about dating in America:

  1. The asker pays
  2. Graciousness and Gratitude cover a multitude of mistakes

Like I said, there are exceptions to every rule these days, so look for other indicators of ingratitude, being taken for granted, irresponsibility or social inequity. The bill payment issue is just totally mixed up in our country and most people don’t know whether to offer or not or what that might mean to you.

Of course, you can completely dodge the issue by simply going somewhere free.

Finance Guys, Gold Diggers and the Economy

Wow, I don’t even know what to say about this one. NYT published an article about the woes of the Banker wives and girlfriends forming a support group that you can join …“if your monthly Bergdorf’s allowance has been halved and bottle service has all but disappeared from your life.”

You definitely need to read the article as it may make your head spin a bit, but this part really made me sad/angry over the utter lack of compassion these ladies have for the men in their lives that they signed on to love through the good AND the bad. I suppose its what happens when Gold Digger meets Wallet and then the economy empties the object of that Digger’s affections.

Some women in the group said the men in their lives had gone from being aloof and unattainable to unattractively needy and clinging. Others complained of being ignored — one, who called herself A.P., wrote on the blog that three weeks had passed without her boyfriend “asking a single question” about her life. Another wrote, fearfully, that her beau had told her to make a list of their favorite New York restaurants before the bad market forced a move to the Midwest.

“Next time you are stressing over some finance guy, remember that he is just a math-club nerd,” one woman wrote after recounting a breakup. “This recession just bought everyone an extra two years of the single life.”

Another, though, seemed chagrined, after her boyfriend told her to “grow up” and stop “complaining about vacations and dinner” since he had to “fire 20 people by the end of the week.”

On the blog, the objects of their affections — and disdain — are referred to as F.B.F.’s, for Financial-Guy Boyfriends. Financial news is conveyed via a color-coded daily warning system: red, when the Dow fell 300 points on Oct. 6 (“Good night to have dinner with your girlfriends and do laundry”); yellow, when Warren Buffet invested $3 billion in General Electric (“Good night to hang out with your F.B.F.”); green on Jan. 21, in honor ofPresident Obama’s hope.

Despite the seemingly endless stream of disparaging remarks and shaking heads, some of the appeal of dating a banker remains.

“It’s not even about a $200 dinner,” Ms. Petrus said. “It’s that he’s an alpha male, he’s aggressive, he’s a go-getter, he doesn’t take no for an answer, he’s confident, people respect him and that creates the whole mystique of who he is.”

For those of you non-single business men who are reading in shock… it may be a good moment to express your gratitude to the woman in your life who treats you like a partner she wants to support instead of a ship to pillage before casting off on her next pirate raid (maybe check the blog first to make sure there isn’t a story with suspicious parallels). And if you’re single… you might be doing a jig of joy to be Gold Digger free.

Mr./Ms. Conflicted will eat your heart for breakfast

I’m in Chicago for a while. Found someone to live in my house and take care of things while I braved the great white north for some book research. After wrestling my bags (yes, multiple. Unusual for the usually carry on only girl) to the taxi stand and watching my breath freeze in mid-air for a few minutes, a cheerful Chicago cabby pulled up and loaded me in. Since my general policy is to be nice to ANYone who not only wrangles my bags for me but is cheerful about it as well, we got to chatting on the ride to my temporary abode.

We covered the usual… where are you from, talk about family, comment on the weather and then he asked what brought me up here at this time of year. I explained that I am writing a book and doing research while escaping horrendous allergy issues in Austin. Then he asked the fateful question… What is your book about? 

My simple answer launched a colorful, derisive and humorous commentary on dating in Chicago. After a good 15 minutes of explaining the ins and outs from a cabbie’s POV (hey, he sees a LOT) he left me with this… “Watch out for the a$$hole factor from the men up here. I hear them categorize women all the time and typically in terms of how long it will take to get that girl in the sack, how long they would keep her around after getting her in the sack and how hot their friends would find her in the meantime.”

I laughed and told him that I would make sure to be careful, but that attitude is, unfortunately, not limited to Chicago men. After all, I’ve been interviewing across the country, and I see it everywhere in men AND women. Sad, but true.

Yes, some men and women are only out to use others. I know, news flash, right? But they are the easy ones to spot and avoid if you don’t want that mojo in your own dating life. However, there are others who quietly go about being men and women of character and, generally, they have the loveliest things to say about the people they date, what they are looking for in a relationship and who they hope to find. Sometimes the quality folk are harder to find, but keep looking!

But lets talk about the people in the middle. The men and women who smack talk in public about how they can use or manipulate someone but (you suspect) yearn for something different in private. Or who talk a really good game to your face but whose actions reveal a whole different sort of person after scratching the surface. I’m going to go out on a limb and say, if you meet one of these and are fortunate enough to recognize it before your heart gets sucked into the grinder… walk, no RUN away. Here’s why that internal conflict is so dangerous to anyone that person dates:

  1. Mr. Conflicted doesn’t know how to embrace what he really wants and be the person he needs to be to get it. Translating into his actions lining up with his current attitude rather than being guided by who he wants to be. You may be on the receiving end of a roller coaster ride between sweet and sour.
  2. Ms. Conflicted picks friends who support this “user” attitude which continually reinforces negative behavior.
  3. Mr. Conflicted’s friends have the ability to influence his attitude (bad news for you if his friends don’t like you taking their play mate to a different playground.)
  4. Ms. Conflicted is likely to make you feel like you don’t know the rules to the game, keeping you always on guard against potential “bad behavior.” 

Yes, I know… something in many of us wants to think WE are the special person who will turn the bad boy/naughty girl around. The savior complex. Its a pretty American thing birthed by the James Deans and John Waynes along with a pervasive cultural attitude that we can save the world. But I’m here to tell you that its a lot more rewarding to find someone who meets you where you are. Someone that you don’t have to fix. Someone you can accept and love just as they are. Someone you can trust.

Have we lost our storytelling tradition?

A phone date brought up a very interesting discussion last night. Is it just guys who prefer bottom line and get-to-the-point communication or are women also joining the “keep it quick” team? I asked the question of my network; “Has anyone else noticed a change in the nature of storytelling (and communication) since our culture has adopted texting, IM and short media?” In the conversation that followed several theories came up as to cause and effect ranging from Sesame Street attention span shrinkage to our inability to just sit and “Be” — un-distracted by all the stimuli surrounding us.

So, what does this have to do with dating and mating? I’ve noticed over the years an increase in people over-riding each other in conversation, asking each other to get to the point, completely checking out when the other person is talking and I’m wondering, is it the storytellers that need to get with the program or perhaps the get-to-the-point crew can slow down and give others time to tell the tale? Or perhaps its an environment thing? At work, get to the point and at play or on a date relax and let the tale unfold?

The Irish in me hates to tell a storyteller to curtail the tale but I’m certainly not immune to society’s expectation to get to the punch line and wait for someone to ask for more details if they are interested. Sometimes I’ll find myself in the middle of a story and literally see the other person’s eye start to glaze over. Believe me, I find a way to wrap that puppy up in two sentences or less since what’s the point of telling a story when you have no audience? (And I’m not even a long-winded story type!)

So what’s the answer? Do we cave to the pressure and bottom line it even when at play? Do we re-learn how to listen to each other and just enjoy the process? Do you think this change is here to stay and our culture is just moving away from the oral tradition that our forbears embraced? Is this something that needs to be considered as you go through the dating and mating process… “Hummm, she tells way to many details in her stories. I can see myself hiding at the office instead of coming home to hear how and what the puppy threw up on the sofa.”

What will this change do to our ability to remember details and grasp a concept if we begin to skip the details that undergird the punch line/opinion/point? Are we losing out on opportunities to get to know each other better by essentially asking the other person to skip what they think is important/entertaining/educational/funny/necessary? My phone date said that its precisely because he listens intently to every point that he loses patience by the end of a long-winded tale because he begins to wonder if there is a point or even a reason he should know each detail introduced. I can totally understand his frustration… especially when you run into a story teller that wanders every corridor of their mind, producing a stream of consciousness affect that will make even the most patient person crazy.

What do you think? Are you a frustrated and mute storyteller or do you just collect drinking friends and wait till the liquor is flowing before launching into your tale?

Does Economic Downturn Signal Marriage Downturn?

As the “Impressive Clergyman” says in Princess Bride, “Mawage. Mawage is wot bwings us togeder tooday. Mawage, that bwessed awangment, that dweam wifin a dweam…”

There are some who deny marriage as any possibility in their future, but for most of us dating folks, at some point… marriage is at the very least an option and for others a lifelong dream. Students of history may wonder what this economic decline signifies for dating and mating during an era of increasingly troubled pocketbooks and hearts. Here’s what history says about it…

According to the numbers cited from the Future of Children Website

Rates of first marriages have fluctuated dramatically over the past 70 years. In the 1920s, annual marriage rates were approximately 99 per 1,000 single women. Rates declined during the depression era (early 1930s) to 81 per 1,000 women. Marriage rates then rose to an all-time high of 143 per 1,000 women in the post-World War II era (mid-1940s) and declined steadily for the next 30 years. Rates declined sharply in the mid- 1970s to 85 per 1,000 women. In recent years, the rate of first marriage continues to decline and reached an all-time low of 76 per 1,000 women in 1988. Thus, during the marriage peak in the mid-1940s, approximately 14% of never-married women wed each year, compared with the current low of approximately 7%.

Without getting into a debate over whether or not we are in an actual depression, the stats from the 30′s bear looking into since they more closely mirror the emotional and mental outlook of today than a post-war boom or period of economic growth. So, 1930′s folks were looking at 81 per 1,000 getting married. Our most recent stats had that number even lower at 75-78 per 1,000 during the mid 2000′s (according to a more recent study.) So, what does that signify for today? Are the rates going to go even lower?

Perhaps. Does that mean you should just give up?

Never!

Consider this daters — yes, times are tight. But when the going gets tough, you can get such a clear picture of someones character and how they handle adversity. Is your man folding under the pressure or making plans for the eventual upturn? Is your woman turning into a complete worry-wart or figuring out ways to barter for what she needs? How are YOU handling things? Have you gone into hiding or buried yourself in a bottle? Or did you lose your job and parlay it into an opportunity to start your own business?

Its a good time for seeing where the chips fall when life throws a curve ball in your direction and take the necessary steps towards getting your mind into a healthier and more balanced place. Yes, bad things happen to good people, so what are you going to do about it?

Just because stress and depression are becoming hallmarks of our American psyche, doesn’t mean you have to follow the trend. I know it may seem hard to believe men, but women aren’t all wrapped up in the depth of your wallet. Yes, there are a few, but I think the majority of women look more at the depth of your spirit and how you treat her even when you aren’t rolling in the dough. And women who dream of marriage and family, think more along the lines of being one of the married 75 than giving up hope and letting yourself die on the vine. 

Opportunities exist in every fold of history, so find a way to take your own opportunities and make history happen. And even find a little love along the way. 

NYT Article on the Demise of Dating

Interesting NYT article that I made me start thinking… what do you think? Have we started going backwards? Is this something limited to college and high school or is it bleeding into adult dating as well?

OP-ED COLUMNIST

The Demise of Dating

Published: December 13, 2008

The paradigm has shifted. Dating is dated. Hooking up is here to stay.

Earl Wilson/The New York Times

Charles M. Blow

(For those over 30 years old: hooking up is a casual sexual encounter with no expectation of future emotional commitment. Think of it as a one-night stand with someone you know.)

According to a report released this spring by Child Trends, a Washington research group, there are now more high school seniors saying that they never date than seniors who say that they date frequently. Apparently, it’s all about the hookup.

When I first heard about hooking up years ago, I figured that it was a fad that would soon fizzle. I was wrong. It seems to be becoming the norm.

I should point out that just because more young people seem to be hooking up instead of dating doesn’t mean that they’re having more sex (they’ve been having less, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) or having sex with strangers (they’re more likely to hook up with a friend, according to a 2006 paper in the Journal of Adolescent Research).

To help me understand this phenomenon, I called Kathleen Bogle, a professor at La Salle University in Philadelphia who has studied hooking up among college students and is the author of the 2008 book, “Hooking Up: Sex, Dating and Relationships on Campus.”

It turns out that everything is the opposite of what I remember. Under the old model, you dated a few times and, if you really liked the person, you might consider having sex. Under the new model, you hook up a few times and, if you really like the person, you might consider going on a date.

I asked her to explain the pros and cons of this strange culture. According to her, the pros are that hooking up emphasizes group friendships over the one-pair model of dating, and, therefore, removes the negative stigma from those who can’t get a date. As she put it, “It used to be that if you couldn’t get a date, you were a loser.” Now, she said, you just hang out with your friends and hope that something happens.

The cons center on the issues of gender inequity. Girls get tired of hooking up because they want it to lead to a relationship (the guys don’t), and, as they get older, they start to realize that it’s not a good way to find a spouse. Also, there’s an increased likelihood of sexual assaults because hooking up is often fueled by alcohol.

That’s not good. So why is there an increase in hooking up? According to Professor Bogle, it’s: the collapse of advanced planning, lopsided gender ratios on campus, delaying marriage, relaxing values and sheer momentum.

It used to be that “you were trained your whole life to date,” said Ms. Bogle. “Now we’ve lost that ability — the ability to just ask someone out and get to know them.”

Now that’s sad.

Link to the actual article

Sexpectations

Austin seems to be a 3-5 date town. By that I mean, the social expectation of sex on a date seems to fall between the 3rd to 5th date. Its a generalization, I know. My conservative spiritual friends would be appalled — but then, they also tend to group date and that would be more than a little awkward to explain when you aren’t supposed to be having sex till marriage anyway.

But when I go out with large groups and the dating topic comes up, I ask the question of when guys and girls “expect” to be expected to have sex. 3-5 is the answer. (the guys leaning towards 3 and the girls leaning towards 5)

So, if Austin is a 3-5er, what is New York? 1-3? I know LA is more along the 1-3 lines, Atlanta is much longer — more like “we’ve exchanged I love you’s and I don’t feel like I have to send you a thank you note after a date.”

What is the general sexpectation in the city where you live? Do you find that there are expectations or it’s just a go by experience kind of thing?

Sexpectations

On my recent trip to Paris and London, I had the wonderful opportunity to grill my European friends on their thoughts of Americans and the way we date. Let me tell you, I got an earful! And spent hours alternating between laughing and wanting to sew a Canadian flag onto my bag. 

The most telling conversation revolved around how the rest of the world perceive American women. Granted, I started the ball rolling with penetrating and insightful questions, but after that, the conversation took on a life of its own and eventually wrapped most of the bar into the debate. The verdict was wrapped up in one simple comment made by an American living in Paris at the time and had the rest of the guys laughing and nodding their heads in agreement.

He stated:

“Kelli, its really very simple. It comes down to a few easy distinctions. 1. A French woman will sleep with a guy on the first date as long as she likes him. If there is no possibility of a relationship, the closest he will get is one or two air kisses on the cheek goodnight. 2. The Brits are known for sleeping with anyone on the first date whether they see a future or not. But that doesn’t mean he’ll get a second date and 3. American women…(insert room full of chuckling men here)…American women are known for having sex with you on date three so they don’t come across as a “ho” but don’t seem to understand that, for the guy, nothing changed between date 1 and 3 except for a few meals.”

I have to admit, I was laughing by the end as well, because well, he had a point.