After a heart to heart with one of my love-lorn “nice” guy friends this weekend, I thought perhaps a post on the difference between “nice” and “passive” might be worth writing. If you suspect that you’ve confused the two, here’s a kick in the pants from your favorite dating blogger. *grin*
I’m thinking the “nice guys finish last” saying should be changed to ”passive guys finish last.” After all, I know a lot of “nice” guys who do very well with the ladies, but they are definitely not passive. What’s the difference between nice and passive? “Nice” is a way to do unto others and “passive” is an attitude of letting others do unto you.
For American guys, dating is hard work. You are expected to do the asking. You are expected to create the courtship. You are expected to go after what you want. Quite frankly, some days it must really suck to have to get up, stare rejection in the face and make your move… again. But I do know one thing, you aren’t likely to just stumble upon success. Building a good relationship means laying a strong foundation and building with quality materials. Sure, it’s rewarding to live in that good relationship once it’s habitable… but no one ever said getting there was easy.
Historically, American men are defined by the twinned roles of pursuer and provider. A currently shifting attitude according to a recent NYT article. But I’m going to bet that most of the men reading this post grew up learning to ”treat women right,” “be the man in the family” and “make your mother proud.” Expectations that cover a range of actions from giving up a seat on the bus for a woman to being the kind of dad and provider that takes care of your family.
I can’t imagine how hard it is for a passive man to live up to that quintessential American male role. The better jobs go to the guy who aggressively pursues them. The most desirable women get snatched up by the men willing to woo them. It’s John Wayne meets Woody Allen and the “Duke” takes down Mr. Passive every time.
So how do you slide away from your Woody Allen tendencies without completely losing all that Emotional Intelligence women forced you to develop? (I never said women make it easy.) It may be as simple as redefining your concept of “nice.” Nice does not mean passive. Nice means you are kind and care about the Golden Rule. You treat others with respect and help little old ladies across the street (even if she does beat you with her umbrella.) Nice means that you’re the guy your girlfriend actually wants her friends to meet because she knows they’ll all adore you. (They never adore the bad boy types who emotionally batter their friend.) So what is a “passive guy?”
You may be a “passive guy” if you find yourself doing things like:
- Waiting for her to call, text or write.
- Waiting for her to ask you out or initiate a change in your relationship.
- Replying only to the women who contact you on an online site instead of searching out and contacting the women you prefer.
- Not making advance plans and sliding into that “spontaneous guy” role (Tip: To a lot of women “spontaneous” is code for “I don’t have a plan” as opposed to “delightfully full of surprises.”)
- Showing up for a date and asking her what she wants to do. (Even with alpha women, perhaps especially with alpha women, this does not go over well.)
- If you have a problem, you just let it fester instead of tackling it head on.
- You find yourself complaining instead of solving.
- You may be known for having relationships that last for years only to have a girl break up with you because it never “went anywhere.”
- You’ve had a crush on someone for a long time but have never explored possibilities beyond friendship.
- You meet a lot of interesting women but you never ask them out.
Please don’t shoot the messenger. I know that some of these behaviors are really hard to change. It takes courage and no small amount of persistance to step into a leadership role when you’ve gotten used to letting life and dates pick you. Ultimately, this has more to do with attaining what you want for the future than asking you to be someone you are not. If you want to date and marry a women who “wears the pants in the family,” then passivity might be your golden ticket. And I’m not saying that’s bad or wrong… everyone is wired differently. But if you want to marry an equal or take the lead in your relationship, letting go of the passive behavior will win you more esteem than just about anything else.
You want respect and she wants to respect you. In my mind, that’s a win/win solution.
Interesting distinction between “nice and passivity”…
I think your comment about men living up to the “quintessential Amercian male role” is perfect and draws attention to the fact that gender roles play a huge part in relationships constantly. Given that for many men (I think) it’s impossible to live up to today’s confusing social expectations in relationships and often life in general, passivity is akin to learned helplessness in men (as well as for women). Great blog…I look forward to reading more..
thanks for the comment dynamicdeux. so right on with your observation about learned helplessness. I’ve talked to men all over the country who are just frustrated and stalled out because they feel like they’re in a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation with expectations and dating.
Loved this post. You are dead on, especially about the not making advance plans being seen as ‘not having a plan’. That shit is so infuriating
LOL… I’m hoping the “preach” didn’t come thru with that one since it’s a personal pet-peeve of monumental proportions for yours truly
Thank you for breaking it down. Most of the alpha women I know absolutely prefer a man who calls first, makes plans, and pursues. It’s nice not to have to be in charge of everything all the time, and it’s great to know someone digs you enough to make an effort.
Jacki — isn’t that the gist of it… knowing that he “digs you.” There’s nothing like seeing that he put some thought into what he wanted to do with you before you got together to let a girl know that she’s on the radar in a good kind of way.
Great Post. It really breaks down the difference between passive and nice. I agree with the need to have a plan otherwise it just reflects very badly and could descend that dating opportunity quickly into the abyss. However, I do hope women will provide men a little bit of slack and Grace if there is an occasional unplanned situation. Yet, planning for an environment and evening meant to be spontaneous would probably a lot safer. Guys need to have an answer to keep things from hitting the point of Stark Disaster.
unplanned is fine or even planned sponteneity — it’s the pattern of unplanned that becomes the problem.
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Love your blog and glad I found it.
Thanks for taking this opportunity to discuss this, I feel strongly about this and I like learning about this subject. If possible, as you gain knowledge, please add to this blog with more information. I have found it extremely useful.
thanks Britt! Doing my best to add information… one word at a time
I agree 100%. I used to bemoan the ‘nice guys finish last’ cliche. The reason for this is that I would wait around until I was sure a girl reciprocated, and even at that, would still wait for her to make the first move. The simple shift from that to asking a girl out on a date has totally changed things for the better. I get rejected more, sure, but go on a lot more dates overall, and have a better social life, so I don’t really care about rejection anymore. It might have taken me a bit of time to figure it out, but passivity is intrinsically un-masculine. It’s all part of growing up.
that’s a great point about waiting around to make sure there was reciprocity. I’ve been shocked over the past few months to get emails from guys who all of the sudden realize I no longer live in their city and are bummed that they never got the chance to ask me out. Ummmmm… okay? Why are you telling me this now? The sad thing is that for all of the guys who have emailed me along these lines… I would very likely have said yes if they’d just given me the chance to. (Well, except for one… he never had a chance.
I agree that passivity is generally a bad thing, but I fervently disagree with how you pose the topic. This shouldn’t have been entitled “dear men…” but should have been given a gender-neutral title like “dear doormats…” By putting it in the frame you did, you are presupposing that it is alright for women to be passive. You are also reinforcing the cultural notion that men aught to be assertive strictly based on the fact that they have a wiener.
Now, I know that was not your intention, but this is just as heavy laden with unhealthy gender distinctions as the famous “Men are from Mars, Women are From Venus” book by John Gray. (The irony of Mr. Gray writing a book on marriage counseling is that he himself is a divorcee, he has no formal training in interpersonal relationships–his Ph.D is form an unaccredited institution–and his teachings fly directly in the face of the research done by those who do).
It’s a pickle. I agree that there are far too many passive men in our culture. But I would say that the same is true for women. Blame it on the emotionally removed nature of the internet. Blame it on our love for comfort and non-confrontation. Blame it on absent fathers and the entertainment culture that’s “amusing ourselves to death.” Who knows the root cause.
The truth of the matter is, we are all growing more passive, and it’s unattractive to everyone. To say that it’s the man’s job to fix the problem is…well, passive.
True — I probably could have titled it along more gender neutral lines and that’s a good point. But, I was really trying to specifically address the men for this one, since it was men asking me the question.
Most of the time, I’m pretty gender neutral on my posts but from time to time there are areas that seem to have a greater affect on one sex over the other, so I get more directed. Not saying that’s the way it “should” be — it’s just my observation and I try to be as practical and specific as I can be so my blog is relevant more than PC.
I agree though… passivity is a problem along so many lines for both men AND women.
I agree with Ryan, most stories of this type simply reinforced gender roles if it’s in a woman’s favor. The whole bad man/ good woman motto of this country makes wish I could somehow turn gay. Equality is not unilateral.
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Why should a man have to be the aggressive partner, and why should the man be expected to change himself to meet the approval of the woman?
This is the flaw in your logic. The women that pass on passive men have the whole in their logic, and the situation is completely, without exception, entirely their fault.
Please see the last paragraph in the post
I agree that no one *should* need to change themselves… and that passive men (and women) can find people who like the passivity. I’m just hi-lighting the consequences for guys who want a different outcome than they’ve been getting thru taking the passive road.
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Interesting “opinions” of the author and interesting comments below!
A few days ago, a man I was dating pointed me to this book -
http://books.google.com/books?id=9SPVkbeW6X4C&pg=1&lpg=1&dq=hazards+of+being+male
It was written in 1976 by Herb Goldberg, and it is as true today as it was in 1976.
The point in the book is that Passivity is one of the many natural human conditions which have been converted into sins to shame men into the myth of masculinity.
It is time for you men to reclaim your rights, including your right to be passive and to make the women in your life actually get off their lazy fat asses and do a little more of the asking out, planning for dates, and facing rejections.
Once you read the book end-to-end, you will recognize the myths that you have been believing in – the pure perfect helpless damsel in distress that ever supposedly delicate woman pretends to be. What you men need is self-confidence and the power to not depend on women.
Yes, you will still depend on them to have babies, but women need babies as much as you do. As for sex, granted that your urge is way more than it is for women, but you can do it yourself much better.
You men should be in a relationship with a woman not because you need her, but rather because you want to. Likewise, you should not be a slave or servant to any woman, and you should not be her boss or sex master either. You have your own life to live. So reclaim your rights.
Oh, and stop listening to one woman’s or a few women’s opinions about whether you should be passive or not, and instead listen to your own self, your own body, your own mind. Be exactly who you are and be proud of being who you are. The right woman for you will be interested in the true self-confident you, regardless of your aggressive/passive self.