I got a flirty text last nite. Normally, that wouldn’t really be news to write home about, but this one surprised me because I was fairly positive he and I were in the friend zone. Now, I’m not so sure. Don’t worry, I’m not getting a head full of ideas, after all, he may have meant to send it to someone else or was a bit too far into his happy cup, but it did make me think.
Are there people in your life who you are CONVINCED have you in the friend zone whether you like it or not? I wouldn’t be so sure. As I interview folks, there are times I cross-interview two people who know each other and I hear things. The kind of things that make it obvious that these two both like each other but are convinced the other doesn’t feel the same and therefore do not want to “risk the friendship.”
I’m going to say something unpopular. If this is you… Take the risk! If you really do have such a great friendship, it will withstand some honest communication whether you are on the same page or not. Your odds may be long, but keep in mind, I hear a LOT of stories about people who meet and marry because they knew each other as friends first and something had to happen between friend zone and the first date…
I read this excerpt on David Wygant’s blog:
“Don’t Be Afraid To Express Yourself: If you’ve already been friends for a long time with the female whom you’d like to date and she’s never thought about you in a romantic way, then you need to understand that there’s a good chance she’ll never think of your romantically. The way so many guys get themselves into the eternal friend zone is that they played it too safe when they first met that woman. They act in a very passive-aggressive way toward her. They are so afraid of really expressing to her any indication of their romantic interest in her, that they go out of their way not to express any feelings toward her at all. For example, instead of really asking the woman out on a date, they will ask her to hang out in a group. So instead of really talking to her and clearly asking her out on a date, guys will nervously ask a woman out on a “non-date” kind of date. The reason why it is almost a foregone conclusion that you will end up in the friend zone in this situation, is because you have never asked her out on a real date. You ask her out – to barbeques, to happy hours or to parties – but it’s always to join a group of other people. If you’re interested in somebody, you need to ask her out so it’s clear to her that you are asking her out on a date.”
David’s right on the mark about how men get into the friend zone and the same can happen for women. They want to play it cool or be one of the guys and before she knows it, she’s no longer seen as a potential date… she’s just one of the guys who happens to have boobs to look at as well. (Yes, I know ladies… you really didn’t want to hear that one but my guy friends assure me its true) All of that aside, playing it safe was what got you into this position in the first place. Express yourself and all that has a chance of changing. Don’t express yourself and it all stays the same.
Prep Steps to bridging the friendship gap
- Make sure this is something you really feel. You aren’t just reacting to something sweet your friend did for you, that you want more official first dibs on her chocolate chip cookies or that he looked really hot last Friday nite. If you’ve been feeling the more than friend leanings for a while, you’ve got your answer and may proceed to point #2.
- Observe the other person’s body language when they are around you. Does it say “interested?” Are they always pointing their body towards you (shoulders and hands open to you, toes pointed in your direction)? Do they already touch you a lot? Does he or she seem to sparkle a little bit more when in conversation with you? If you have a few yes indicators, proceed to point #3.
- If you are a little chicken (lets face it, many of us are) start small with flirty texts, flirty body language (grooming, mirroring gestures, touching your own lips, neck or hair when you talk) or touching her/him in a non-friend kind of way. Back patting hug = friend. Full frontal hug with no pat + a linger = not so sure you’re “just” a friend. If your friend responds, take it as a good sign of possible return interest. If they don’t, be patient as they may open up once their mind processes the change in dynamic (ie. last night’s flirty text… it made me wonder about a possible different track)
- Find time one on one and face to face to talk with your friend. I would suggest a neutral territory that is private enough for a real conversation but not loaded with triggers of past memories. You are treading new ground here. Sit or walk NEXT to each other if possible. When you are facing someone over a table, there is a barrier there to what you are saying.
- Marshall your thoughts and figure out how to say what you mean to say without pressure, coercion or shying away from the truth. Be direct, clear and fairly non-emotional. This is not the time to play the “God told me you are my future spouse” card. (Yes, people really do say that. I’ve been on the receiving end when I did not feel the same way. Aaaaaaawkward!) By honestly and directly saying what you are feeling, you give the other person a clean exit if need to. Ie. they can respond directly and non-emotionally that they don’t feel the same way and you can go back to being friends easier than if you poured your heart out and brought up all the times you’ve looked at the other person with love on the mind. (If they DO like you back, you have plenty of time to share that gushy stuff later)
- This is key… give the other person space and time to react. Don’t pressure them for a decision right then and there. Suggest another time to get together and go on a date without the crew at some point in the near future — say 4-5 days out. If they say yes, you have an open door!
- Be smart. Don’t treat this one like another one date wonder. Lose your old player/dater habits if those are the habits you have. After all, if it doesn’t end up in marriage, you might be able to go back to being friends if you don’t rip each others hearts to pieces in the interim.
How to know if your friend might be interested? (Look for 3+)
- Have they tried to set you up with other people? Yes, some are masochistic enough to really like you and want to date you but will sacrifice that if they get no indicators of interest from you. They’ll set you up and usually be hoping and praying it doesn’t work out and you realize how much you really want them instead but thinking that at least you’ll be a great date for their friend.
- Do people ask if you are dating each other? Or tell you that so and so must really dig you? If so, these are big indicators that other people are picking up vibes between you.
- Is body language an open invitation even if the words are not? (Read my post on body language if you need help)
- Are they finding times to be with you one on one when you know each other usually from a group setting?
- Have they suddenly started or stopped sharing the details of their dating life with you? Most men will stop talking about other women and most women will start revealing more about their love life.
- Are they leaving you more comments on your Facebook, Myspace (or other social media sites), sending you more emails or verging into flirty texting?
- Did they tell you anything along the lines of “I can’t understand why no one has scooped you up!” or “That last guy you dated was a jerk. I would have treated you better” or “You know you’ll never love someone else like you love me.” You may have a closet lover on your hands.
I hope this will help some of you figure out if you may have a ticket out of the zone. For those of you who know me personally, take this as no indication that I will recognize the signs in my own life. I’m notoriously blind when it comes to a guy liking me or not. If you like me, just ask me out. I don’t bite. Usually.
Girl, you couldn’t have better timing! But I totally snafooed #1 on the signs they might be interested. I always thought setting a guy up was a sure sign that I wasn’t interested in him. No wonder it never worked!
Ok, here’s one for you. I’ve been going on “dates” with a girl for about 6 years now, but we’re not exactly “dating”. What I mean is, we do things like go out to dinner, go to the local farmer’s market, go to the occasional social function, etc. She has even come over for holidays like Christmas and Thanksgiving and has recently been talking about the two of us maybe taking an overnight trip somewhere out of town and fun. I’ve known her for about 6 years and we have a pretty good friendship. At least a couple of people have commented that we seem to look good together, that we “kind of work”. I have even expressed interest in…well…getting physical…on more than one occasion. We haven’t gone there, but we seem to grow closer, while not quite getting that close. The typical response I get is either sort of a joking redirect of the conversation topic or something along the lines of “I don’t think of you that way…you’re my friend.” I definitely like the girl a lot, but it is a bit frustrating at times, not really knowing for sure if I’m in the friend zone or the more than friend zone.
well brice, you got a whole blog-post for an answer
I’m hoping it helped at least … some
I’m honored.
The problem is, though, I’m never quite sure if it’s ok to date anyone else. It’s kind of like she and I are dating, but not dating. I’m not that worried about it, though. She’s my friend, regardless.
No such thing as the friend – zone! Just pre-sex and post-sex!
So Grant — no men and women friends possible? Is it like the whole Harry Met Sally thing… that sex always gets in the way because one person or the other wants it?
I totally approve of the “Take a risk” advice. As I explained to a couple of friends last year – I’m giving you this in cleaned-up language – in any relationship that doesn’t work out, you will probably end up being perceived as one of two people – the “screwer” or the “screwee.” If you are too afraid to be one or the other, you might as well hang it up and never date again.
Amen! Preach it gypsy!
Leave the fear behind and reap the reward.
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Okay, so I’m a little behind the times on this one. It only took me nearly a year to read it. But now that I have, there are a couple things that struck me, in no real order, just numbered for easy reference.
1. The whole “just friends” thing is such a shaky, almost cringe-able topic for guys, since it’s often a toss off to hide a complete lack of interest in ANYTHING on the part of the girl. No friendship, no nothing. So when a guy and girl actually do become friends, it can be tense at first. This can lead to unintentionally dishonest communication about any deeper feelings by either person.
2. There are men and women who cannot be just friends — either because one can’t handle it or because together they can’t. That’s not always a bad thing, if they want to go ahead and dive into a romance, but it can be disastrous if they aren’t ready yet or never will be.
3. If either of the friends ever develops deeper feelings, it’s best to go ahead and get it out in the open immediately. That way nothing weird happens that freaks out the other party. Talking about it can only help. The other person may be feeling things too and will be relieved to finally be free to express those feelings. Or if they aren’t feeling the same way, then the two can discuss what to do next: remain friends or split due to an unbalanced relationship. Either way, it’s out there and open for honest discussion.
A friendship between a man and woman who don’t really feel the same way will only lead to disaster if left undiscussed. But open and honest communication call save a great deal of frustration and tension…and might even lead to life-long bliss.
The friends thing is, indeed, a tough road for those who have been romantically entangled in the past or who have talked about the possibility of getting romantically entangled only to decide not to. At times, you think it’ll easily transition into something easy because you had a great friendship as a couple or to begin with, only to see things get awkward and difficult when one or the other person wants to keep the same relationship but just put a different label on it. You are so right about the open communication thing… you have to do it, even when you don’t want to.
Friend Zone? What is that? Only women and gay guys have “friend zones”. Guys evaluate women pretty directly:
1. Am I attracted to her? Yes/No
2. Is she crazy? Yes/No
3. Is there some other disqualifier? Yes/No
It is that simple – don’t project a female world view on men’s decision making process.
To Brice – dude – 6 years?
Yeah dude – you were banished to “friend zone” a long time ago. You need to quit that relationship today and move on to someone who will give you all of what you need. Stop wasting your time on a relationship that isn’t going anywhere. Six years dude! Don’t be mean about it – just be very direct about why you’re quitting the friendship – that you need more. For all you know she could have been waiting for six year for you to man up and draw the line – so do it already.
Hummm… I agree with you on point 1 (really for both girls and guys) — and the (no) would be the friend zone that I’m talking about. Once you’re in it… you tend to stay in it due to the “no attraction” clause. Or are you saying that you don’t think men and women can be friends — hence the no friend zone or just that it’s more clear cut when a guy puts a girl into the friend zone?
Another Q — my post is really talking about finding out if you’re in the friend zone or if it’s just a case of “don’t want to ruin the friendship” — so, as a guy, do you feel like it’s a pointless question since if a man is attracted he WILL act on it or is it projecting to think that guys struggle sometimes in bridging the “friend” gap if they’re attracted?
As for the crazy… a LOT of guys repeatedly seek out the crazy. I’m not saying they “like” the crazy — but it sure makes a not so crazy girl wonder from time to time what they’re thinking and wonder if there must be something they get out of dating a “crazy” or why continue the pattern?
Anyway … I’d love your thoughts. One of my guy friends asked me for a post on the friend zone so I honestly was thinking it was a cross-gender concept
Ha! You’re so right – some men chase crazy (and if they’re really stupid – they marry crazy).
Sometimes it boils down to what seems normal – if mom was or previous relationship involved a crazy – then crazy seems normal but it doesn’t mean that it is healthy.
As for the men/women friends thing…
I know of no married man who has a close woman friend who is not his wife – not one.
What does that tell you?
From a man’s perspective, a close friendship with a woman is just a substitute for a healthy marriage relationship. So with that dose of reality, ask yourself what the goal of the relationship is for him. Is he really interested in being more than friends or are you just serving as a methadone hit for his relationship needs?
So your question about ruining the friendship is the wrong question. The right question is, “What is he in this friendship for?” If you can answer that question correctly the rest becomes clear. Remember to answer my evaluation criterion in either yes/no (there are really just two evaluation points – #2 is really a sub point of #3 – oh and #1 should have been revised)
Revised Evaluation:
1. Is she attractive enough to marry? Yes/No
2. Is there some disqualifier about her that makes her non-marriage material? Yes/No
If you really want to know what he is thinking – just ask him – he shouldn’t have any difficulty in answering the two questions.
Oh – follow up on my previous point #1 – the attraction mechanism for men and women is different. For men it is primarily visual so it is fairly easy for a woman to go from unattractive to attractive and back again. With women, no so much – it seems that once a guy has been banished to the “friend zone” he’s pretty much stuck there. I do know of some cases where men have escaped the “friend zone” and all have done so by relentless pursuit – they just wore her down until she agreed to go out with them. Hmmm… I never really thought about that much – an interesting topic for discussion.
I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. I’ve actually been a part of several really healthy communities where men and women, married and single were good friends. Granted, there were also healthy boundaries in place… so that kept it from becoming some sort of substitute relationship hodge-podge.
I’m really grateful for some of those relationships, in part, because they showed me that women aren’t just sexual objects to men… that there are men who see value beyond the sexuality.
Hmm…
OK.
I’m still trying to think of one example I’ve ever seen where that worked out well and I’m still drawing a blank.
I can think of lots of cases where it didn’t work out well.
Maybe it isn’t a question of what you can do – rather a question of what you should do. Because you can do something without consequence doesn’t mean that it is wise to do so.
I should have qualified my earlier statement better – it should have read ‘without adverse consequences’.
We all know that every action has consequences.
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Lets makes this simple… For me it’s hard to be friends with a girl if I have a crush on her or if I were rejected and she just wants to stay friends. Why?
It’s just the perception and emotions that goes into having a crush on someone and even being attracted to that person at first sight.
I know it’s horrible but I just can’t bear being friends with someone that I had a crush on or was rejected.
Men and women can be friends (sometimes…).
You aren’t the only guy I’ve heard that from. I’m a bit the same in that I won’t actively decide to be “friends” with someone if there are active feelings for either party that are more than friends. It seems to me that it’s important to be on the same page or you inevitably end up with one person stringing the other person along.
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Ok heres my dilema. Been friends a short while and get along great. everything flows with us. She gives me signals that say she is into me but then says straight up she doesnt want a relationship. says she has things she needs to deal with. She isnt saying she doesnt want a relationship with me exactly cause we havent really talked about it like that. She says she doesnt want a relationship in general. Mind you she just got out of one right before we started hanging out. Im confused.
Un-confuse yourself. Her mixed signals read like this: “I like him, but not enough to want a relationship with him. I don’t want to hurt his feelings so I tell him that I don’t want a relationship at all.”
She may be interested in less than a relationship — with you or others… like hook ups… any chance she looks something like this… http://datingandmatinginamerica.com/2009/02/21/how-to-know-when-someone-is-rebounding/ ? Give her some time to mellow from her last relationship and just be a great guy in her life for now.
Hmmm…. I read both articles about the friend zone, as I’m interested in this topic for my own story.
Most indicators you mention are in my favour, or at least they NORMALLY are, but… last time him and I we saw each other (we have a long-distance friendship), I went to his city to attend an event, and after the event I stayed for 2 more days at his place (the invitation to return and stay at his place had been made months ago). Note: he lives with his parents, sister and dog. 
However, I felt him much more distant than usual. And nothing happened “romantically”, apart from cuddling. His sadness also killed my romantic mood. 
He justified himself by saying that it’s a bad period and it will pass, he told me about being upset with various people, about being confused about the direction to take in life, etc (he is only 23 and I’m a few years older). Even some of our mutual acquaintances complained to me about him being distant, and not returning their calls or e-mails, asking me “what’s wrong with him”.
), but we’ll be in an event of 300 people. 
About talking about past conquests, he tried to show me a couple of photos of exes, but he didn’t go into details. Like “I had a short fling with this girl last year, but she left the city. Pretty, huh?”, or “with this girl I’ve been for 3 years”. But he didn’t know that I actually knew one of these girls, and I know they haven’t been together. Exaggerating the info? What sort of sign is that? In the end, I changed the topic and he didn’t bring it up again.
On a more joyful note, there is a good friend of ours who always asks me whether I want this guy, and always keeps saying that I will marry him, and that “he will show me he is a real man.” I was introduced to some friends I didn’t know before, he invited me to spend the summer holiday in his city, his dad asked me to come and visit again, and … last but not least…we cuddled A LOT when we said goodbye at the airport. He always hugs me and holds me really tight, and he always giggles when I cuddle up to him.
I don’t know what to believe anymore… I’m confused! Now I decided to give him some space (I returned home last week), but I will text him soon. Next time we will see each other is in February. We are going to Turkey (BTW, our story is based in Italy
Many hugs and I’m looking forward to some advice!